Topics: The Voice Referendum and Israel

E&OE

NICK RHEINBERGER: Well as we head towards our referendum, as I mentioned yesterday, we're seeing a really interesting trend, if you look at the long-term trends with many people, according to polls at least, changing their mind from yes to no. And I've been asking a lot of people what has happened and what has caused them to change their mind. Is it a reflection of polling itself or has something happened during the campaign? Angus Taylor is of course the Member for Hume and joins us now here at ABC Illawarra. Angus Taylor, g'day.

ANGUS TAYLOR: G'day Nick, thanks for having me.

NICK RHEINBERGER: What's been your view of the campaign? How has the no campaign been able to gain such traction in your mind?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I think those basic propositions that have been at the heart of what the No campaign has been saying from the start, propositions that Australians have been accepting. I know everyone wants to see an improvement in the position of disadvantaged Indigenous Australians. I don't think there's any dispute around that. The real question is the pathway there and the arguments that have been made. The voice is risky, it's unknown, it's permanent and at risk of being divisive for Australians. It’s something that I think has resonated with many. Of course, these things happen around kitchen tables, people talk and over time they come to a view. I have to say around kitchen tables, people are talking far more about the cost-of-living crisis we're facing than this, but it’s an important issue nonetheless and people have talked about it and I think they've come to the view that this is not the right pathway forward and I think it's unfortunate we're in this position. I'm obviously a no-voter but I do think that there are better pathways to improve Indigenous disadvantage and I think many Australians are coming to that view as well.

NICK RHEINBERGER: What are those better pathways and why didn't the Coalition put those better pathways in, in the many years they were in power?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well Nick, we went to elections with these policies, but Labor was never going to accept them, they didn't accept them. So, we've always argued from the time I entered the parliament in 2012, indeed before that, when John Howard was Prime Minister, we felt that recognition in the Constitution was the right thing to do. Now, Labor have always wanted something far more substantial in the Constitution and that's not been our position, so we haven't been able to get to an agreement on it. We went to the last election, arguing that we wanted far stronger local governance, a real focus down at the local level, because these are local challenges we're facing, and they need local solutions. So, the policy positions we've had are not new, they're long dated, but Labor has wanted something far more significant in the Constitution and that's not something we could agree to. So, we are where we are. Let's see what happens this weekend. I don't want to pre-empt the outcome. But it is clear that many Australians, as you rightly say, have been making up their minds and shifting to no, over time.

NICK RHEINBERGER: What are the risks in your view, if this was carried?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, the first point I'd make is its permanent so any change to the Constitution is very difficult to change.

NICK RHEINBERGER: Well, it's not, I mean we can have another vote and remove it, I mean if the Constitution was permanent, we wouldn't be having a referendum this weekend.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well Nick I think we're seeing how difficult it is to change the Constitution now.

NICK RHEINBERGER: That we can all agree on, I think.

ANGUS TAYLOR: One of the things I learned in business before going into politics, is that when you're doing something new, you're best to trial it, get it to work and then on the back of that embed it. But this is a very significant change and I think the reality is that we would be much better to trial something down at the local level, get it working and then work from there rather than going to a full permanent or let's call it a quasi-permanent answer in the Constitution which is exactly what is going on here. Now, you know, changes like this to the Constitution always have unintended consequences. I mean, inevitably these things end up being looked at by the High Court. We’ve had a range of different views about how they'll be interpreted including in recent days. I think those debates will be ongoing and that uncertainty and that risk associated with a change like this is very significant.

NICK RHEINBERGER: I mean, we have had some referendums, as you say, many of them have not been carried. Most of them have not been carried. I mean, we started with, you know, referendums about state debt and about social services. I mean, surely all of those were unknown and untried, but they've since... become a part of the Constitution and simply accepted. Isn't it possible that this is just another one of those?

ANGUS TAYLOR: But I think a lot of the things that have been talked about here, which particularly at the local level can be achieved without having to go to a major constitutional change. And it's a new chapter in the Constitution, there's many unknowns involved, there's much debate between constitutional lawyers about how it's going to play out. So, there was a different pathway forward and we felt that we should have taken that different pathway forward and I think an increasing number of Australians are taking that view as well, Nick.

NICK RHEINBERGER: Just finally on the referendum, I noticed Mr Dutton saying that Anthony Albanese should apologise for creating such division. Wouldn't it be true that if Mr Dutton had supported it and got the Liberal Party to come along with him, then that division just would not exist? Isn't he equally responsible for the division?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I think you're overestimating the influence that our position on this would have taken. I think we can speculate as to whether if we'd supported...

NICK RHEINBERGER: Really, if there'd been bipartisan support? I don't think that's an overestimation.

ANGUS TAYLOR: You don't know, and I don't know. We can speculate.

NICK RHEINBERGER: Well, we do know that referendums don't get carried unless there's bipartisan support.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Right, but we also know that if they're bipartisan, they don't necessarily get carried. But look, we can speculate about this all day. But what I would say is that it has been divisive. I mean I've seen that on polling booths, sadly. And that division is something that I think Australians are really uncomfortable with. As a country we love to look for those common values that we all share. I think that's a very Australian thing to look for what we have in common, not how we're different. I think that's one of the reasons why we've been such a successful multicultural nation. You know I believe that we should always be seeking to find those common values and I think people would like to recognise indigenous Australians in the Constitution. I think we can do that, and I think you that would get overwhelming support right across Australia, but Anthony Albanese has taken a different pathway.

NICK RHEINBERGER: Alright finally we can’t help but ask some questions about what's happening in the Middle East between Israel, the people of Gaza and well beyond. We've had the police speaking a little while ago about the protests which was just an incredible moment yesterday. Here's a little bit of it.

POLICE AUDIO:

During the day on Sunday past, police became aware of the intent of a group of people to rally at the Sydney Town Hall. That was by social media. A range of inquiries were conducted to attempt to identify and speak with those people prior to the rally taking place. We were able to find a person into the afternoon, a yesterday afternoon. At that point it became clear to us, or made clear to us that people intended to move from the Sydney Town Hall to the Opera House. Considering we're very, very clear that this is a very strongly emotive issue. In the circumstances, it was considered the best option for police was to manage the movement of those people from Sydney Town Hall to the Opera House to ensure that we were able to control the movement of the people and get them to a place where we could manage the rally in its form and to prevent the risk of conflict, to prevent the risk of offences, disturbances to the public throughout the city as it occurred. That did occur. The rally, as we well know, took place on the forecourt of the Opera House. This is very clearly an emotive issue across community. We continue to work across all communities. Absolutely. This is New South Wales. We do not expect people to bring conflict from other places to the streets of Sydney. And the violence will not be tolerated, and we were able to manage that to assure that there was no conflict last night. We are continuing to work across all community and all community can be assured that we will continue to do so, so that they are free to go about their business without fear and that we will provide them support across all community. It's been made clear in the media or some statements in the media this morning, a person arrested at the Town Hall last night. That is in fact the case. A person was removed from the Town Hall rally who was carrying a flag for his safety. He was arrested to prevent a breach of the peace for his safety. He was removed and released.

NICK RHEINBERGER: So that is the police talking to the media this morning. I'm sorry, I don't have a particular name of that police spokesperson, but Angus Taylor could we have done better yesterday in particular?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, they were deplorable scenes in Sydney overnight. I think they really are unimaginable in modern Australia, and I think we all need to condemn the actions of the activists and the protesters. It's a reminder of the fact that we need to continue our strong support for the people of Israel and the Jewish community. I think it is incumbent on all of us to ask community leaders, including the Prime Minister, to ask community leaders to stop this protest from taking place.

NICK RHEINBERGER: Would it have have been reasonable to keep them at Town Hall, for instance, and not let them march on the Opera House which was being lit up with the Jewish colours.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, well look I'm not from the police but I have to say every action should have been taken and should be taken in the future to prevent this from happening again. It really is absolutely unacceptable, it's despicable what we've seen.

NICK RHEINBERGER: Alright great to talk to you this morning Angus Taylor, thanks very much.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Good on you, thanks Nick.

NICK RHEINBERGER: Angus Taylor, Member for Hume here at ABC Illawarra.

ENDS.