E&OE

TOM ELLIOTT:

Alright, as promised our next guest is the Shadow Minister for Defence, Angus Taylor. Good morning.

ANGUS TAYLOR:

G'day, Tom. Great to be with you.

TOM ELLIOTT:

So, we've sent the Americans two lots of $800 million - $1.6 billion in total. What exactly are we getting for that?

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, what we should be getting, Tom, is access to one of the world's leading military capabilities, nuclear submarines, which in a modern context play an incredibly important role; and the role we want in this environment is to deal with what is a strongly emerging threat. What the Prime Minister himself has described as the most uncertain time since the Second World War, a dangerous situation. The objective here is peace, but you only achieve peace through deterrence and strength, and nuclear submarines need to be part of that strength. The real question for the Government is, are they serious about making this AUKUS arrangement work? Are they serious about the US Alliance? Are they going to engage in this review that is going on right now by the Americans? And where is this taking us? And frankly, we haven't had the answers to those questions, and the risk is we're pumping Australian taxpayer money into an arrangement the Government's not seriously committed to.

TOM ELLIOTT:

Do we have any control on what the American government actually spends this money on? Like, I think I read somewhere that they're supposed to upgrade the shipyards that will build the submarines. I mean, do we have a commitment that it doesn't disappear into the general pot of, you know, revenue, that it actually goes to a specific function?

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, this is, of course, the risk if you haven't got the arrangement bedded down, and you're not having the discussions you need to have to make the Alliance work. We've gone through over 260 days now since this new US administration has been in place, there has been no face-to-face meeting between the Prime Minister and the President of the United States. He’s very happy to get out and go and meet the President of China. Well, knock yourself out. We trade with China. That's important. But the really crucial question here is, why aren't we having these discussions with the Americans to make sure this money is going to the right place. The AUKUS arrangement is going to deliver. The US Alliance is playing the role it needs to play in achieving peace through deterrence and strength in the Indo-Pacific and frankly, there are a lot of unanswered questions here from the Prime Minister.

TOM ELLIOTT:

Let's just say this review that the American government is currently undertaking concludes that AUKUS doesn't make sense for whatever reason. I mean, do we get our money back?

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, I mean, again, this is a great question. Look, the commitment from the Government should be to make it work, because we cannot afford to allow a militarising Chinese Communist Party to dominate the Indo-Pacific. That would be bad for Australia. It would be bad for the world. It would be bad for the United States. It's an authoritarian regime that is flexing its muscles right now, like many authoritarian regimes around the world. So, we've got to do everything in our power to make it work. But right now, the engagement between the United States and Australia is not what it needs to be. It needs to be at the very highest-level Tom, and that means President and Prime Minister sitting down working this through.

TOM ELLIOTT:

Alright, well, let's say he doesn't go ahead, and we do get our money back. Is there a plan B? I mean, the only other people that build nuclear subs are, I think, the British and the French as well as Chinese, and I don’t think they'll sell us one of theirs. So, could we go it alone with the UK perhaps?

ANGUS TAYLOR:

I think that's a reasonable question, but on the other hand, let's try to make plan A work. I mean, I don't think this Government is even putting in the work it needs to to make plan A work. If you're not seeing a meeting between our leaders to work through the issues here, to make sure that the Americans understand we're seriously committed to peace in our region and that means we've got to have joint strength, joint deterrence. If you're not committed to those things, you haven't made plan A work, and you haven't given it a real chance of doing so. And by the way, you've got to remember AUKUS is about more than just nuclear submarines. It's about, you know, there're emerging technologies in military capabilities that are making a real difference right now. If you look at drone technology, if you look at undersea gliders, I mean, you talked earlier about how you see one technology overtaking another in so many parts of life. Well, it's happening with military capabilities as well and the second part of AUKUS is about focusing on these things…

TOM ELLIOTT:

Just on that is there a risk that while nuclear submarines are today's, you know, ultimate weapon system that may be down the track, they're not, and we're actually buying the wrong thing?

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, you know, this is the sort of thing you've got to be constantly looking at. I think the consensus view right now is that nuclear submarines are going to play a big role for a long time, but there're other technologies that are also playing a role alongside it; and you've got to be there, and this is what the Alliance needs to focus on. These are the discussions that need to be happening. We need to have a military and Australian Defence Force that is funded so that it can do these things. It's underfunded right now. That is very clear. You've heard, ASPI, one of the experts in this area, think tank in this area, saying just in recent months, that we are at risk of having a paper Defence Force in this country. So, I don't think the Government's serious about this and the result of it is we are putting not just the Alliance at risk, but AUKUS at risk as well.

TOM ELLIOTT:

And final question, I'm told that even with our current conventional submarines, the Collins Class, we've only got one or two at sea anytime out of the six or so that we've got, because we lack the number of submariners like the sailors to sail them. I mean, is there any point in buying lots and lots of big nuclear submarines unless we actually have the people who want to crew them?

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, you've got to have the people, and you've got to have the support, the maintenance support, the sustainment and if you don't have those things, then you're absolutely right. The big acquisition upfront doesn't deliver, and this is a very serious risk for us right now. We're seeing a lack of sustainment. We've seen reports on this in recent times on some of the most important ships in our Navy, and so there has to be a focus on getting the funding right, on having the money spent well, on having the Alliance in the right place and in all of these areas, we have experts telling us regularly, the Government is not where it needs to be.

TOM ELLIOTT:

Alright, thank you for your time, Shadow Minister for Defence, Angus Taylor there.

 

ENDS.