E&OE

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Alright. Well, joining me live now is the Shadow Defence Minister, Angus Taylor. Angus Taylor, thanks for joining us. I might start on this preventive detention issue because Tony Burke there, the Home Affairs Minister has basically seemed to be saying, we've given up on that with this NZYQ cohort, and one of those detainees is alleged to have committed a murder a week ago. What's your reaction to the minister having passed that legislation saying, “Oh, it's too hard to put anyone in preventive detention.”?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, Andrew, good to be with you, and you're right. This is a very serious issue, and the key here is to keep people off the street in these circumstances and it's always been too hard for this Labor Government to achieve that, but it has to be an imperative. We helped to put through or accelerate through legislation last time around, and we've always been supportive of Labor doing what's necessary to keep these people off the streets, and we'll do the same again. But you know, the job for Tony Burke is to make sure that he is able to do that, and as I say, we'll do whatever we have to do support that, but we'll also hold him to account on making sure he achieves that.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Let's move now to defence. You're pushing for the government to increase its defence spending. If it did raise that spending from 2.3% of GDP by 2035 to say 3% what you announced at the election, what should the money be spent on?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, Andrew, can I say that the reason for spending the money is the most important point here, which is ... we are seeing authoritarian regimes across the globe flexing their muscles, and open democratic societies like ours need to stand up for what we believe in, and need to make sure we achieve peace through deterrence and that does mean getting spending up. There's a range of things that are very clear that we need to spend on and first and foremost, the government has not properly funded its own Defence Strategic Review, and there's a whole series of areas which we're seeing are underfunded. Right now, we're even seeing ships that are not getting the appropriate level of maintenance and sustainment, so they're not in operation as they should be. But we also know we need hardening of our northern facilities in places like Tindal in Darwin, in Townsville, we need to invest in that drone and counter drone technology, which we know is playing such an important role in conflicts across the globe. We've seen that in Ukraine. We've seen that recently in Iran, with Israel. We know we need to increase spending on recruitment and making sure we're getting the people we need into our Defence Force. We are thousands and thousands of people short of where we should be and where the government's own goals are. We need to make sure that the Henderson sub facility is getting the investment it needs to be able to build the subs and also play a role in maintenance and sustainment and all of these things desperately need investment. The under investment is really showing. Defence experts across Australia are saying the same thing. ASPI has told us, we are at risk of having what they're calling a paper Australian Defence Force. A paper ADF. This is a desperate situation now, and it needs immediate action.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

The Prime Minister says we shouldn't have some arbitrary target set by another country. It should be depending on need. What's wrong with that argument? What do you say about that?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, you know … yeah I mean, he is right. It should be based on need. But his own Defence Strategic Review has laid out where the money needs to be spent and it's not being spent. I mean, this is the point. This government's not even meeting its own goals, Andrew. The recruitment numbers, of course, are way below where they need to be. Our naval surface fleet is not where it needs to be. It's clear that trying to get the balance right between the imperative of AUKUS and other defence spending is not working right now, so the government is not even meeting its own goals. Forget the pressure being put on by the United States. This is about what's appropriate for us, and if we are to have control of our own destiny, if we are to play the role we need to play in ensuring we have peace through deterrence in our region, the spending is too low, and the government's own plan demonstrates that.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Where should the money come from for that defence spending because you went to the election with that policy to increase the spending and take some of the money out of tax cuts and that didn't really work electorally, did it?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, that's not actually correct, Andrew, but I mean, what's clear is …

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Why is it not correct? I mean … hang on. You didn't back their tax cuts, and that money was going to be hypothecated to the defence spend, was it not?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, no, that's not correct. All of the tax cut money went into other tax cuts. There were different tax cuts, Andrew, but the point here is this. This is the first and most important imperative of any government: keeping their citizens safe, making sure we have peace in our region. We have an important role to make sure we achieve peace through deterrence, and that means you've got to get the balance right. Now we got a balance of this where we had a stronger budget position over the forwards than Labor, and we increased defence spending on a pathway to 3% of GDP at the last election. The next election will be different from the last. It needs to be for us, of course. But the point here is this …

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

But where does that money come from if it wasn't the tax cuts? Excuse my ignorance, Angus Taylor. You had billions coming in tax cuts and you devoted billions to defence. Now you can argue, “Oh, it wasn't that pot of money. It was this other pot of money”, but it looks pretty clear cut to me. So where did you get that money?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, Andrew, it was all laid out in our statements in the lead up to the election, and it included making sure we have the right size government in this country, that it doesn't need to be bigger than it should be.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

So public service cuts?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

That's all laid out in those numbers and yeah, that was part of it. It was clear. I mean there’s no ambiguity about that Andrew so …

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Do you still support that?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

The point, look, Andrew, we’ll have an election in close to three years’ time, and we'll lay out our policies in advance of that. I'm not going to get into laying those out now, but what I would say here is this: is if a government is not in a position to keep its people safe, then it has failed as a government. If a government is not in a position to make the investments necessary to achieve peace through deterrence in the region it is in, then it has failed its people. And it is clear from a whole range of experts right now that we are not in the position we need to be with our Australian Defence Force, that Labor is failing us, and it is clear from Albanese’s comments, he has absolutely no intention of changing this. This is a disaster for Australians and for Australia. We need to get serious about it, and I'm going to continue to hold the government to account on this because this is a failure from our government.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Okay, this is the first time I've interviewed you since the election. Do you regret any of the decisions you made, such as on the decision to deny Australians tax cuts?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, Andrew, as I said to you, I won't go through your point about tax cuts. I mean, I think you've mischaracterised it, but the point I'd make is this: we clearly didn't succeed at the last election. It was a drubbing, and we have to do far better. We've got a lot of work to do. That's why we're going to have an election review. All of us in the leadership need to take responsibility for that, every single one of us, and we will do exactly that. That's what we were talking about this week and we have to do better. We have to do it in a way which is consistent with our values. We have to do it in a way which is true to what the Liberal Party has to offer the Australian people and I think aspiration, defending our great country, making sure Australians have the opportunities they deserve. These are core Liberal values, and we have to do it in a way which is true to that. That's why we're having our election review. It's an important piece of work, and we'll have those debates and we’ve started to have this week.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Were you consulted on the work from home policy because there's varying reports around this that Jane Hume just did it with Peter Dutton, or were you consulted before that announcement?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

You know, Andrew, I'm not going to dissect the past … the details of the past election with you on this program this morning. I understand why you're asking that question, and that's fair enough but I'm not going to, I'm not going to do that. We need to do better. We need to do better and there's a whole bunch of different areas where we need to do better, and I'll work closely with colleagues and all of us who are in the leadership and are in the new leadership, need to play an important role in making sure we get these things right.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

You missed out by a couple of votes on the leadership. Do you still have a leadership baton in the knapsack, Angus Taylor?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, I do want to lead defence in this country. That is my job right now in terms of the shadow role and I would like to be the Defence Minister of this great nation and I want to have that role because I think this government is letting us down. We've come out hard and early on this important point on making sure not just that we have the funding we need to be able to defend our country and achieve peace and maintain peace in our region, but also to make sure every dollar of that spending is spent well. I have an economics and business background, and I think bringing that to bear on making sure we're procuring the right capability, we have the agility we need, we have the people we need, we have the readiness that's important at this time, is my focus, and I'll continue to lead in that area, Andrew.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Would you challenge again this term, do you think?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Look, we've had our leadership ballot, and now we're getting on with the job, and we've got a big job to do, as you rightly point out. We've got a lot of work to do to understand what went wrong at the election and how we can fix it. We've got a lot of work to do to hold the government to account on its failures in defence. We've got a lot of work to do to make sure that we take the right policies to the next election, and I'm going to work with my colleagues to make sure we do that.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

During the week, Sussan Ley suggested quotas could be a good idea if individual state divisions of the Liberal Party wanted to pursue them. You made some comments on Friday indicating you didn't like quotas. Is that a fair summation of your position? Bit of difference between you and the leader here?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, you know, you'll always look for those differences. It's terrifically exciting for the press gallery to find those. But can I step back and say, look, the key thing that we all absolutely agree on here is we have to mobilise a grassroots movement across our side of politics for the things we believe in, and that means having people who are representative of their communities, are representative of the community here in Australia, and we need to find every possible way to do that. Now we've got to have sensible debates about making sure that we have more great women coming into the party at the organisational level, in the parliament, in the Reps, in the Senate and that's hard work we've got to do. I've never been a believer in quotas to achieve that, but it's clear we have to take proactive action to achieve that. I see Julian Leeser has been out in recent days saying one way we could do that is by focusing on primaries and I think that's an interesting idea that deserves evaluation. So look, I think there's a really important debate here. I'm going to be part of it. Sussan and I absolutely agreed on the objective here, and we're going to work together closely on it.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Just briefly, Angus Taylor, because we're out of time, the government's going to have this productivity roundtable, and Ted O'Brien has been invited, the Shadow Treasurer. What is your view on tax reform, say, perhaps lifting the GST, but lowering income tax?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, my instincts always are against raising a tax like the GST. It's just not where my instincts are. But we haven't got a specific proposal in front of us, Andrew. I think we all need to be fighting for lower, simple, fairer taxes but I would say that the starting point for tax reform is always spending reform. You're not going to get good tax reform without making sure that government is spending every dollar well and I'm going to be making sure that every dollar is being spent well in the defence portfolio over the coming months and years.

 

ANDREW CLENNELL:

Shadow Defence Minister, Angus Taylor, thanks so much for your time.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Great to be with you, Andrew.

 

ENDS.