E&OE   

SALLY SARA:

Joining me now is Angus Taylor, the Shadow Minister for Defence. Angus Taylor, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

G'day Sally, good to be with you.

 

SALLY SARA:

You say that this is deeply concerning, this review, but isn't it pretty normal for a new administration to review a multibillion-dollar long term project and alliance?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, it's an incredibly important long term alliance and project, and there would be a very high price to pay if something was to go wrong with it or we were to lose it. This is key to peace in the Indo Pacific, which we all want to see, deterrence is critical, and AUKUS is a critical piece of that, and that's why taking it very, very seriously is crucial. There are a lot of questions that haven't been answered about this review. When did the government … well we have some sense of when they became aware of it, but what in particular has gone on in the discussions between the Defence Minister and the US administration? To what extent is Labor's failure to commit to appropriate funding for the ADF, for our defense force a contributor to this review? What are the detailed Terms of Reference for the review? What will it cover? And perhaps most importantly, when will the Prime Minister meet with the President to discuss this face to face because I think personal relationships really matter in nutting difficult issues out. This is difficult, and we don't pretend it's otherwise. We are deeply committed to a bipartisan approach to AUKUS, and we'll do whatever necessary to make sure it's a success.

 

SALLY SARA:

President Trump is yet to comment on the review, but yesterday, former Prime Minister and AUKUS architect, Scott Morrison, was asked if he was confident that the US President was on board for AUKUS. This is what Scott Morrison had to say.

 

SCOTT MORRISON

I've never had concerns about this, and I've never had any reason to. I know there's been lots of speculation about it and a lot of self-fulfilling speculation about it, or at least seeking to be self-fulfilling, but that hasn't been my concern. I mean, there's a review underway, I think he'll take notice of what the Elbridge Colby says, and I think we need to engage with that and make the case again.

 

SALLY SARA:

So if Scott Morrison isn't concerned about this review, why are you so concerned?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, I just think there's a lot of questions here that have got to be answered, and it's crucially important. I hope Scott Morrison is right, and there's nothing to worry about here, but I do think there are issues that will have to be worked through. I think one issue that the United States has already raised very clearly is our spending on defence. It's sitting at 2% and their view is it needs to go up, and we're seeing it going up right across the developed world, as you've just heard in your last interview, Sally. So these are crucial issues that need to be worked through. Labor needs to take them seriously. We stand ready to work with the government to do exactly that and as I say, there would be a very high price to pay if something were to go wrong with AUKUS because we must have peace in our region, and AUKUS is crucial to that.

 

SALLY SARA:

Are we going all in on the wrong capability here? Nuclear submarines are very expensive. The Hunter Class Frigates take billions and have been running late, but at the moment, we have no armed drones, no counter drone systems. Our bases are not hardened and protected from the kind of attacks we've seen in Ukraine, Ukraine taking on Russia. Given the changing nature of warfare, what needs to change in our capability shopping list, in your view?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Yeah, it's a great question, Sally, and I think the point you're making is a very good one, which is we need more agility in our capability, but it's a mix of both. It's necessary. We do need the big capabilities. The nuclear submarines are part of that, of course, alongside items like the Joint Strike Fighter, but we do need more agility, and that means drone and counter drone capability, missile and counter missile capability, including sovereign manufacturing in appropriate circumstances. Labor has committed to that, but we've seen no plans, no substantive plans to proceed with that, and certainly no action on it. And this is one of the many areas where there's gaps in what's happening with our defence of the nation. We don't need rhetoric. We need readiness. We need sovereign capability. We need agility, and we need the people to be able to support that and Labor's falling short on all of those fronts and your points about what is needed as a balance … these are not either/ors. You need both, and that's what we should be doing.

 

SALLY SARA:

You're listening to Radio National Breakfast. Angus Taylor, the Shadow Defence Minister is my guest. There's still no guarantee that Anthony Albanese will meet President Trump at the upcoming G7 but if a meeting is secured, in your view, what should be the priorities in any discussion?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, AUKUS should be a priority. I mean, obviously there are economic issues to be discussed, like trade as well, and they're incredibly important, but AUKUS should absolutely be a top priority, and making sure that we are doing our bit in a partnership, a difficult, but incredibly important partnership and the emphasis should be on making that work, making sure we do our bit, and I would say, also advocating for why it's important for the United States. I mean, this partnership gives the United States a submarine presence in Western Australia. It also extends to Pillar 2, which is focused on some of the technology and more agile capabilities that we've just been talking about and so all of that is not just good for Australia, it's good for the United States, and that advocacy is important.

 

SALLY SARA:

Looking at the Liberal Party, who should lead the reviews into the Liberal Party election loss and policies as well?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Oh look, I'll leave that to the leader, and I'm sure there'll be discussion on that, but I mean, it's important we do a review. I mean, there's obviously a great deal to learn. It was not a loss any of us wanted and when you have that kind of loss, you've got to learn from it and I think that's enormously important.

 

SALLY SARA:

You're advocating for greater defence spending. How should Australia pay for that?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, we did in the lead up to the last election, and we'll need to in the lead up to the next election as well. I mean, it is very clear as you look around the world that countries like us are having to step up. The objective here …

 

SALLY SARA:  

But how do we pay for it?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, I'll come to that. The objective here is not conflict. It must be peace. And as we found money to pay for the pathway to 3% in the lead up to the last election, we must in the lead up to this election. I'm not going to give you our costed budget numbers now for the next election Sally.

 

SALLY SARA:

But that involves things like cutting thousands of public servants. That that was a failed policy, wasn't it?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, well look, Sally, I'm not going to get into a commentary on these things now. I mean, you're the commentator and I'll leave you free to do that, but what I will say is peace in our region is something that needs to be invested in. It's something that we have to prioritise, and we have to find ways of finding that money. We did in the lead up to the next last election. We'll need to in the lead up to this election. Labor, and most importantly, Labor needs to be doing that now. I strongly suspect that this will be part of the discussion with the United States and the Defence Minister and Prime Minister are going to need to sharpen their pencils and work out how to find that money to properly fund our ADF. I mean, we have ASPI telling us that we are at risk of having a paper ADF. I mean, that's simply not good enough. And we have to …

 

SALLY SARA:

Do you really believe that, though?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, I mean they are saying it, and I think there are very clear signs of underfunding right now. I mean, Labor has committed to northern bases that we see no progress towards. Labor has committed to sovereign missile manufacturing that we've seen very little progress towards. Labor is clearly not reaching its personnel targets in the ADF. We are well short. All of these are areas where we're not getting to where we need to be and the price we pay for this is the risk that we don't see the peace we all want to see in our region. That's got to be the top priority.

 

SALLY SARA:

Angus Taylor will need to leave it there. Thank you for your time this morning.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Great to be with you.

 

ENDS.