ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Well, joining me now is the Shadow Treasurer Angus Taylor. Thanks so much for your time. Let's start with the issue during the week about the power supply. You were recently, of course, Energy Minister. Would you have done what the government did this week and allowed the Australian Energy Market Operator to suspend the market?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, Andrew, the reality is that Labor has consistently opposed getting more supply into the market. We saw that with the Kurri Kurri gas generator and you are well across that issue …

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Okay, we’ll get to that …

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
… for a long time. But the point here is this. Supply is the answer. It’s not coming in and crushing the market. Get more supply into the market. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
If you were still Minister, I just want to get you on this point. It's pretty yes or no. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well I'm not still minister. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
If you were still Minister and you were in Chris Bowen’s situation, and I acknowledge you are not still Minister, would you have gone with this action?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
I would have focused on getting more supply into the market.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
So you wouldn’t have had to. Is that what you’re saying? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
The first instinct of Chris Bowen was to have a gab fest with politicians and bureaucrats. My first instinct always is get more supply into the market. Now …

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
How would you have done it? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
The facts here are really important. In the lead up to the election we saw a gas price in Australia that was at 25% of the international price. We managed to contain gas prices in Australia, and that flows through to electricity prices, that flows through to supply and availability. We had worked hard over a long period of time not to demonise the gas producers, to make sure that there was a right system of carrots and sticks in place. Carrots in that we worked with them to get more supply into the market, like Narrabri, which again is a project you know well, Andrew, and sticks through the ADGSM. They understood the arrangement. They understood that that was how it should work and it did work. Now, the wrong instinct, the wrong instinct here is to say, ‘forget about dispatchable supply, reliable supply. Let's crush the market.’ But if you don't understand dispatchability, the importance of reliable supply of gas and electricity, then you will never understand the need to focus on that because in the evening when the sun goes down, you're still got to have your dispatchability, Andrew and that's why projects like Kurri Kurri and the Tallawarra generator down in the Illawarra – a technology neutral capacity mechanism. All projects that we've driven over recent years, that I've personally championed with lots of opposition, Labor opposed them, resisted them at various times. They're still not favouring a technology neutral approach. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Okay, let me get back to this point. So they shouldn't have crashed the market. *inaudible* 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
You know, at the end of the day, they're in government but what I am saying is if you focus on supply, if you focus on reliable supply, you don't get yourself in this position. Labor has consistently resisted supply. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Okay, let’s talk about supply, let’s talk about supply. How are we in a situation – your government was in for nine years – that we are reliant on such decaying coal fired power stations?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
So we've been replacing it.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Have you though?

ANGUS TAYLOR:
Well the best example of this is Kurri Kurri. The debate over …

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Which isn’t built yet. 

ANGUS TAYLOR:
But we committed to it with opposition from Labor. Let's be clear about this. With opposition from labor. They opposed it again and again and again and under pressure from people like Joel Fitzgibbon, largely because of the local politics, they rolled over in the end, but they didn't want it. And we've seen this, if you take the capacity mechanism, which is an incredibly important reform. Now Bowen is saying, ‘we're going to allow the exclusion of coal and gas.’ I mean, this is ridiculous, Andrew, you've got to focus on supply, you've got to consistently focus on supply. Labor's always opposed it and now they're looking around to point the finger at someone else.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Right. You could have set up a gas reservation in government. Why didn't you?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
We had an ADGSM and it worked. And we saw when we put the … and you will remember this. Back in 2016/2017, we saw a spike in gas prices. We put the Australian Domestic Gas Security Mechanism in place. We worked with the gas producers I worked personally with the gas producers with both carrots and sticks. The carrot was, we work with you to get more supply into the marketplace and we have the ADGSM there available as needed to make sure you do the right thing and it worked. We saw a significant reduction in gas prices as a result of that. That flowed through to electricity prices. We saw an 8% reduction in household electricity prices,10% in small business, 12% in industry, Andrew, this worked. Now Labor, Labor want to have a renewables target of 80%. They haven't explained how they're going to firm it up. They're saying they're going to build a lot of transmission lines, but these are going to be like extension cords without a power point.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Okay. So you wanted to extend Liddell coal fired power station, and Morrison went with Kurri Kurri instead. That’s pretty fair isn’t it?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
No, no, that’s not …

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
You did want the government to put in some money with this New South Wales Government to extend the life of the Liddell coal fired power station. Is that correct?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
No. Let me correct you on that. I always said there's one of two options you must pick. You either must have a replacement or life extension. It was very clear with Liddell, it was getting old and the better option was replacement. And that's why we went with the Kurri Kurri gas generator as well as the Tallawarra Energy Australia generator. So two major gas generators necessary to replace Liddell. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
So you take …

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
… and this is – the point here, is Labor opposes it, it is extraordinary.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
All right. Do you take no responsibility whatsoever for what's happening with the energy crisis? You were in government for nine years. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
There is no doubt that there has been upward pressure globally on energy prices around the world. There's no question about that. And that's a big challenge. It's a big challenge. We saw that challenge earlier in this year. There's no doubt about that. The point I'm making is that there's sensible actions that can be taken to alleviate those pressures. And you know, it's exactly the same with interest rates and inflation.  

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Wait, do you take any responsibility for the energy crisis that we have now?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
What I am saying is that we had managed this in the lead up to the election successfully. We had managed it successfully, Andrew, and we showed how you do that which is to focus on supply, don't demonise traditional sources of fuel, don't demonise the coal and gas fired generators, and we delivered the outcomes. Now Labor has promised a $275 price reduction. We'll see if they can deliver the outcomes. Our outcomes were very, very clear. The question for them is are they still committed to that? I haven't heard a single Labor politician since the election commit to that. Reality is mugging them.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
I’ll talk to Tony Burke on that in a moment. But look in 2018 you set up this thing called Underwriting New Generation Investments (UNGI). Did you fund a single project from that?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
We have funded the Kurri Kurri gas generator. We've funded Snowy 2.0. We've been working with Energy Australia, I just mentioned Tallawarra, which is happening. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
That's four years ago. Have you actually built anything? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
All of those projects are proceeding. All of those projects are proceeding.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Pretty slow burn though, isn’t it?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, you can't do these overnight. And this is the point. This is why when Labor opposed the Kurri Kurri gas generator, they were making a very significant move because that's an impact further down the track. It does take years to put these things into place. That's why getting a capacity mechanism in place that’s technology neutral, that doesn't pick your favourite fuel sources, is so important, Andrew and it's absolutely critical. So absolutely critical that Labor supports those sensible policies that we've been pursuing, that they've been resisting consistently, and you've seen the debates, you saw how they played out, there was enormous opposition within Labor to these projects and it continues to be because they demonise traditional fuel sources. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Let's talk about the target of 43%. You’ll block it in the Senate, yes? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
That’s not our policy. Yeah, that's quite right. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
So you’ll be voting with the Greens?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
We are not supporting *inaudible* 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Couldn't we reach that target anyway? Potentially, you always said we’d meat and beat our climate targets. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
It’s about how. It's always about how. You've got to explain. We've always been very clear, we don't commit to a target unless we know how we're going to do it, and how we're going to do it without raising the cost of energy. Now Labor hasn’t explained how they're going to get to 80% renewables by 2030 with enough dispatchability to avoid what we're seeing right now. They haven't explained that, Andrew and for us, that’s critical. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
How much do you think we will reach by 2030 in terms of 2005 levels? You’d set 26 to 28%. You said we were beating that target. Could we end up at 43 anyway? That’s my question. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
The projections are well over 30% now.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
So you think it'd be over 35, maybe? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
We'll wait and see how the projections play out in the coming years. But you know, the projections recognise policy for what it is. They don't pretend that there's something that's going to come and do this magically without any impact on energy prices or jobs.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Onto your portfolio now, sorry, should Philip Lowe still have a job? I'm assuming you've raised interest rates earlier.

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
I'm not getting into criticising the Reserve Bank. What I am going to say though, is this. We have global inflationary pressures, interest rate pressures, which are very significant right now. In the last week in the capital markets we've seen there's a view that interest rates in this country now are going to go up very substantially. The question is what's the government going to do to alleviate that? If you want to manage interest rates, if you want to manage inflation, you've got to manage your budget. It's very, very simple. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
The deficit is your old government. That’s what’s sitting there. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, we had a pandemic and we turned around the budget. At the last budget we turned around our economic situation, our fiscal policy by $100 billion, Andrew, so that's an enormous turnaround. Labor now is in a position where there are these very strong global inflationary pressures. It's for them to build on that extraordinary turnaround in the budget of $100 billion and make sure that they're doing everything in their power in their economic management policies to put downward pressure on inflation and interest rates.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
What would you cut? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, we've been very clear through the election campaign. $45 billion of off-budget spending, which Standard and Poor's themselves have said is a danger for interest rates in this country. $20 billion of that is the extension cords without a power point.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
So all their promises you'd cut, what about … what else in the budget would you cut? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, well, I've been very clear about the $45 billion. We're not in government, but $45 billion of off-budget spending. We were very clear about …

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
So they should have just dumped their promises?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, Standard and Poor's have been unambiguous in their view, that this is unnecessary spending that's putting upward pressure on interest rates and inflation. Now, we're going to be in a position in the coming months, where the government will be competing with households to borrow money. They're in direct competition driving up the interest rate. So the key for Labor is to manage the budget, as we did at the last budget – a $100 billion turnaround, manage their budget so we don't end up in that position, where the government's forcing up interest rates for Australians on a mortgage. We've got very high levels of household debt, lots of mortgages out there. It's critical the government takes pressure off. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
We’re just about out of time sorry. Just a couple of quick ones. Are we going to see recession next year?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Look, I'm not going to make a forecast on this. Jim Chalmers has promised us there's not going to be one. I hope he's right. I genuinely hope he’s right. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
That’s true. Now, the other one is equity, the Home Equity Scheme, the New South Wales Government,  so that's a Federal Labor Policy, the New South Wales Government's done something similar today. They’ve announced they're going to in the budget on Tuesday. What's your reaction to that?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, we've been very clear about that during the election campaign. That's not our policy. If you want to help people into a home, you put downward pressure on interest rates, manage your budget, manage your money. That’s the task for Labor. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Will you keep the super policy, being able to access your super?

ANGUS TAYLOR: 
Well, that's the policy we took going into the election. We've made no decision otherwise. I mean, obviously, we think it's an incredibly positive policy for Australians being able to choose how they use their savings. And we've been unambiguous about that and we continue to be.

ANDREW CLENNELL: 
Angus Taylor, thanks so much for your time. 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  
Good on you Andrew.